Beyond Meat and Fanatics: Marketing as a Fundamental Driver of Business Results

One of the most complex challenges marketing leaders face today is proving that marketing drives business success.  In this episode on Visionaries, Akerho Oghoghomeh, SVP and Global Head of Marketing at Beyond Meat, and Ken Turner, CMO at Fanatics Collectables, tackle this topic on behalf of the marketing community, breaking it down into five parts–the why, how, who, when and what. Why is it important to know how to drive business results? How do you measure success? Who should you be engaging as champions of marketing? When is it truly a marketer's time to shine?  And what is most important for marketers to focus on?  

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Transcript

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Nadine Dietz: Hello, everyone! Welcome to visionaries, and give everybody just a minute or 2 here to get logged on, and we've got a really fun and exciting show for you. Today

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Nadine Dietz: I am your host, Nadine Diets. I'm the general manager at marketers at matter, and also the Evp. At Mtm's Parent Company, which is 24, 7.

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Nadine Dietz: Today I am going to be joined by 2 fabulous guests. We have Ken Turner, Cmo. At fanatics, collectibles, and Akerho, otherwise known as Ak

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Nadine Dietz: Oh, Gogo May, who is the senior vice president and global head of marketing at beyond meet? And before I ask them to join me here. We're going to cover just a couple of quick housekeeping notes.

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Nadine Dietz: So first of all, we always encourage questions. So if you have a question along the way we we do our best. Incorporate them. You can use the chat feature or the QA feature at the bottom of your zoom screen, whichever is easiest for you. We'll keep our eyes out, and if we can't address some questions along the way, we'll try to get to them at the end.

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Nadine Dietz: We do have a really big topic to cover today. I'm very excited to hear more about it, which is marketing as a fundamental driver of business results. So we'll be sharing a pretty pretty substantial framework for you. And hopefully you'll get a lot of value from the discussion. So that leads to my second point. Before you totally log off a zoom. At the end of this session

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Nadine Dietz: there will be just 2 or 3 questions at the end that come up as you log off to ask you your thoughts on what you thought about today. Session. So your feedback is extremely valuable to us, if you wouldn't mind just taking literally might take you 30, 60 s. 2, 3 questions. We would really appreciate it.

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Nadine Dietz: And then last, but certainly not least, I have to give a big shout out to our partner, the Wall Street Journal.

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Nadine Dietz: thanking them for all of their support along the way. So with that I'd like to ask Ken and Ak to join me here.

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Nadine Dietz: Hello, Ken. Hello, Akerho, 

Ken Turner: Nadine! How are you doing, Nadine? How are you? 

Nadine Dietz: I'm excellent! How are you?

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Ken Turner: Wonderful

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Nadine Dietz: cool! What's going on? Akerho?

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Nadine Dietz: How you doing, Ken? We are so excited here from the both of you. And I. This was, this is actually not my idea. This was actually Ken's idea. I have to give Ken credit, he, I said. Ken, do you want to be on visionaries. And he said, Yeah, but only if I can do it with Ak, and I was like, Okay, sounds good to me. Let's go with that and you both collaborated on this topic, so

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Nadine Dietz: can't wait to hear more about why, so would let's start how you 2 know each other. First and foremost. Akerho, how did Ken drag you into this? How do you know Ken?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Oh, man, I've had the pleasure of knowing Mr. Turner now since 2,015

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: back when he joined Red Bull as a director of marketing in the Nobu. It's funny. I remember our first interaction. It was at dinner.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I think you might have been just a couple of weeks in.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: And it was cool because I saw another brown face in the room, and I was like, Oh, man, this is a guy and ever since then Ken's been like a big brother to me out within the world of marketing and life.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: And honestly I had the chance to work underneath ken as a you know, the head of brand marketing. Following this very large footsteps at Red Bull

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: few years, and honestly, Ken is always blown everyone away with just his approach to marketing as approach to leadership, just a principled leader that leads with integrity. He's got one of the most amazing families that you will ever meet or hear about. So that's another fantastic thing about him. But ken has just been incredible. And obviously, if you think about his pedigree where he comes from, it's just.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: you know the the guy. It's just a just a whirlwind of incredible talent. Prior to rebel. He was at Sc. Johnson, had a number of roles, I think. He started there as a was it a brand manager, not assistant brand manager?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Intern. Okay. Started as an intern at Sc. Johnson, at Wisconsin. Even before then, before grad school, worked at broad vision, and also kept Gem and I for a bit ever since meeting him, though back in 2,015, Ken has been an incredible friend and mentor. It's really helped me through May. Most of the major decisions that I've had to make over the last nearly 10 years now. So it's been a pleasure, Matt.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: and thank you for inviting me to be on this this marketers that matter, podcast. It's truly an honor.

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Nadine Dietz: I would say you're welcome. But Ken actually invited you so. But no, I think it's great. I love it. When 2 friends come together. It's I'm you know, and it's always interesting to hear how your background's intertwined. So ken tell us about Ak, why? Akerho.

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Ken Turner: yeah. So there's there's a couple of reasons why I'll tell you a little bit about Akerho, and then I'll get to to. Why, Akerho for this session

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Ken Turner: so Ak is right like an Ak. Doesn't know this, but I often to refer. I often refer to Ak as as a little brother, or one of those little brothers that you love, but sometimes they just annoy you because they know they can. And that's kinda Akerho. He's a he is a driver.

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Ken Turner: He is a driver for for success and a driver for results, which is why we got along really well, he's not shy about talking through areas of of disagreement and a very respectful manner

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Ken Turner: and respected to developing people and and teams. He's an expert at it so Aka's had a a number of different positions that has allowed him to become who who he is. So working at Conagra for a little bit. We share some stories originally about our dual talks in Chicago although at different times and then Ak was actually responsible for

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Ken Turner: for building the brand function within a business unit at Red Bull. And so Red Bull was a bit newer to traditional brand. Because if you think about rebel and the experiences it was really more about kind of the event. Marketing and sampling, and and Ak is an Og who kind of brought in some fundamentals. You moved out from from Red bull

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Ken Turner: went on to to campaign monitor and learn some things went on to Amazon, but he always we always kept in contact, and and then at Red Bull. When I eventually became the the Cmo.

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Ken Turner: I reached out to Ak. And asked him if he could join me as kind of the Svp. And the and the head of Brand. So it's been a phenomenal sons. There's 2 other things I'll tell you about. Ak, really quickly. He's a Philly fan. So just just keep that in mind in terms of sports teams, and then I I'm pretty sure Ak is from Jersey.

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Ken Turner: and and he's he's actually he's re real real talk. He's actually a Nigerian prince. If you

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Ken Turner: trace through the ancestry Akerho. And the last last thing I'll say about Akerho. He's gonna hate me for saying this is, if you are ever doing kind of any of the any of the songs where you kinda wanna go out and and do some limp syncing or songy. Montel Jordan. This is how we do it that is, that is, that's a K song.

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Ken Turner: So so with that, said Nadine, I get a

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Ken Turner: II get a lot of discussion and conversation about especially my role now, and even at Ripple about understanding fans understanding fandom and understanding the area of sports marketing with a little bit of culture. Because sports are folks are so passionate about sports. You can draw down from that emotion and allows you to to create some really special moments.

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Ken Turner: emotional moments where you can connect with the consumer and audience and a and a fan sometimes there's a little bit of distraction, however, with that, because I still believe that marketing's role is to be a fundamental driver of the business. Ak, and I had an opportunity to to kind of pilot and do some things at at Ripple.

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Ken Turner: Again, Ruppel kind of being known for entertainment sports marketing, where there was a bit of a transition to to driving business results and putting marketing as kind of the the front the forefront and forefront for

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Ken Turner: for those results. And so when I thought about this session it could be, hey, I can bring someone else from fanatics. And we can talk a little bit about innovation, and how fanatics is really taking over a sports and culture and moment. But what better to talk about than opportunities to to use marketing to drive business results and share some of the things that we've done in the past.

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Nadine Dietz: Yeah, you know, I'm so glad that this has happened in this way, because when I met Ak a couple of weeks ago.

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Nadine Dietz: I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. Ken, Akerho, wow! Like the way that you articulate a around this very intense and confusing topic.

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Nadine Dietz: I'm excited to hear more today. So again, for those who you who maybe just joined a little bit late. We're gonna be talking about marketing as a fundamental driver of business results which we all know is top of mind to all, especially in today's environment. But before we jump into the why, how, who, what, and when of that topic can

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Nadine Dietz: tell us a little bit more about the role you're you are in today. And why you decided to take that on.

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Ken Turner: Yeah, it's

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Ken Turner: I'm currently the the Cmo of fanatics collectables. If I could spend 30 s on fanatics maybe a minute off fanatics. Fanatics is a different organization now than it was 2 years ago, different than it was a a year ago.

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Ken Turner: So essentially, fanatics is a an organization with 3 to 5 businesses depending on who you ask. There's a fanatics holding company. There's fanatics commerce. When you think about fanatics, you think about kind of the jerseys and the hats that you buy online. That's our commerce business.

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Ken Turner: We've got fanatic sports book which is betting and gaming which just launched. And then I am the Cmo fan collectibles. So when you think about primarily physical and digital trading cards. That's the space in which I play. We've got a couple of other business fanatics live.

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Ken Turner: Which is our our live commerce shop business and then we just launch fanatics events which will be experiential and bringing kind of fans closer to experiences and athletes. And the fanatics also has interests and other business like Mitchell and S. And lids so that that's kind of the the structure in which we operate

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Ken Turner: at at Red Bull. Rebel is an amazing company. Yeah, it is awesome. I learned so much from Red Bull of being a a a strong marketer and having marketing focus when I met the folks at at fanatics. What was clear to me is, it's an opportunity to to take some of the things that I've learned at Ruppl, especially with respect to core brand fundamentals understanding how to build brand assets and a foundation essence essence positioning

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Ken Turner: those things that make a brand what it is and then really lean into the access from a sports marketing standpoint. Because if there's a a license fanatics has it, or they will have it. Mba, Nfl, Mlb, uefa and so gives you really the opportunity to to really build some things, and I think there were 2 things that was told to me that was to me all right. This is this is probably the place, the opportunity to become culturally relevant

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Ken Turner: and the opportunity to build content.

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Ken Turner: And so you take the assets that we have. You take the the foundation that I've had before. In an organization with some senior leaders who are really looking to push and grow and disrupt a space it became not an easy choice because Ruppl's such an amazing company but a good choice number. Wise.

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Nadine Dietz: Yeah, it's amazing. I remember when I first was connected to you at Red Bull. I mean what you and your teams have achieved there is is was almost like the model of

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Nadine Dietz: couple of years ago. Now we're breaking even into new models. So it's it feels like a natural evolution for you, too. So super excited about that and a Kate couldn't be more different, though. Why, beyond me, tell us about your role and why you took that on?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Yeah, you know, it's funny, Ken kinda said. And I think part of the reason why I took beyond me, since Ken did such a great job at Red Bull kind of building out the structure and the the approach to marketing as pertains to the the Us. Business. But you know I've I've always been somebody who hasn't necessarily taken the easy road. I started out my career as an engineer. Right? I'm chemical engineer. Worked with Dupont for a number of years before deciding to switch careers and move into brand marketing.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: And and I made that switch because I wanted to solve problems engineering backgrounds. They're great because they help you think and they help you approach. Everything is a problem that has a solution or possible solutions.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Many possible solutions to to, to kind of move forward. So even as I was been looking at roles throughout my career. I've always decided to go to places where there was a little bit of disruption that needed to happen right places where someone who walked in and had a different point of view might be able to make substantive change. So even when I went to Red Bull's Ken mentioned.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I was the first brand manager hire in the North American business. I knew it was a place where we were bridge like we're basically creating a new pathway for how we would speak to the consumer in a variety of ways.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I I'll never forget I had an old boss there. His name's Joe Waters, Kendos, and quite well, and I remember my first meeting with Ak. We really like you. We have no idea we're gonna do with you, but we hope it works out. You know that type of situation is a place in which I thrive. II enjoy those areas where there's ambiguity. Where there's an opportunity for me to create structure where maybe there was once confusion or chaos.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: So you know, as I went through my career, working at different places, working at a campaign on a very similar place where Turnaround was an opportunity but Amazon, moving into the recruitment marketing function, learning new skill sets again where turnaround opportunities existed, and then going back to to Red Bull. And and while under Ken we had a structure that we're following right in terms of our planning process, the way that we were engaging with our sales, organizations and everything. It was working really, really well. And we're seeing significant growth from the business.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: but you get itchy right? You're like, Oh, man, like, where's the next challenge? And I think that as I was looking at. The role that I was in and the opportunities were ahead of me. I wanted to go somewhere else where I could create a little bit more of a change.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Whereas Red Bull's kind of a cruise liner, it's just kind of rolling through the ocean, and it's doing an incredible job of that. I wanted to kind of get in the dinghy and see if we could make something similar happen over time. So beyond me represented a big opportunity for us to take a business that had been struggling for a little bit and see if we could find ways to drive growth.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: and the other really cool thing about the company that I think really resonated with me with me, that it was also founder, led like Red bull was for so long. But it was mission driven right. There was a focus on changing the way that we ate. We wanted to feed a bigger, a better future right, I think, beyond me, had create a a suite of products that did a great job of mimicking animal protein right? So that when I think about the world of my children and their children while inherent

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I can actually help people make a change, a small change. It might have a big impact on future generations, right by just changing the way that we eat a little bit. So again, it just seemed like there was a big opportunity out there for us to really have a big impact on the world. And I wanted to have a little, a small role

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: and maybe making some change happen.

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Nadine Dietz: Amazing

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Nadine Dietz: big fan of having a better future for those who follow us. Obviously not more than and I mean more than a fan so you you're speaking to my heart. Here. Akerho,

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Nadine Dietz: okay, so let's dig dig in this topic. It's a big one. And you know I thank you both for the thoughts that you shared with me before we came here, because this topic is unequivocally probably one of the hardest ones that marketers face today.

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Nadine Dietz: Because of the just

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Nadine Dietz: complete differentiation in the role of the Cmo across the industry. The way that marketing is changing and the expectations of marketing. So what? Let's see if we can create a framework so marketing is a fundamental driver of business results. Let's start with the why

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Nadine Dietz: and actually ken I'm gonna start with you on this one. Why is this important?

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Ken Turner: I

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Ken Turner: I truly believe that as marketers.

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Ken Turner: our job is consumer acquisition customer, consumer, and

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Ken Turner: whomever they may be, if a a CEO or a a business leader

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Ken Turner: says, our business objective from a sales perspective is to grow 37% random number. My job as a marketer to understand what changes I need from a consumer standpoint in order to deliver against that. And those changes could be household penetration getting a consumer who has never bought to buy before, or getting consumer who has bought before to to buy more through by rate.

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Ken Turner: or to change some of their buying patterns and buy less of the competitor. More of us who share requirements. It's a simple formula and I think that the marketer.

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Ken Turner: more than any other function, is equipped to do that because we are responsible for the consumer. We're the voice of the consumer. And we understand the best ways and levers in which to motivate

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Ken Turner: that consumer the once you understand. Kinda that is your role. There's some cool stuff that you can do with the above the line and the gray entertainment, and all the the really cool stuff that you do, but at its core. We are there to to motivate behaviors of a consumer to do something that they maybe haven't thought before. And it's not like we're selling things that they don't want. It's really more driving awareness and meaning

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Ken Turner: through the essence of the brand to deliver against that. And again, II don't know if there's another function that's equipped to do that. And so when we kind of started down this path and when I start down the path, I look at those organizations who really give us the opportunity to to really drive kind of that consumer meaning within the business if that makes sense.

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Nadine Dietz: Yeah, absolutely.

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Nadine Dietz: And Akerho feel free to build on anything that Ken was saying. But I'm gonna ask you to take us to the next step in a little bit deeper on the how.

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Nadine Dietz: How do you actually go about thinking about what that looks like, especially with lots of grey out there, right? You know what is driving? What part of the business?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Yeah, just just to build on what Ken said. It's funny. One of the first large team meetings that Ken hosted as the head of brand marketing at Red Bull in front of us. He said to us that the number one objective of brand marketing was to be the fundamental driver growth.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: So this is a narrative that Ken has continued to push.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I mean, you know this is probably 6 years ago, the first time I heard you say those exact words, and I couldn't agree more.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: And I've carried that with me in every single function that I've had ever since, and at varying levels right?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: and even here, beyond me. It's it's it's really interesting, because I truly believe that the only function that can truly be the linchpin

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: that connects business to its customers that can drive revenue that can sustain growth is marketing. I it. It's what it is that we do. And I think that in order for marketers to be successful in doing that, it can't be an isolated function. It's gotta be fully integrated. It's the only function, in my opinion, that can be fully integrated.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: so that we can help building a better corporate strategy.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: In terms of how to deal it. It's funny.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I think there, there are a lot of things that you have to do right. I at the end of the day it's gotta start at the top. And and even when I took on this role at beyond me I had to have several conversations with the CEO before, you know, accepting the offer honestly. I needed to set expectations about what I believe marketing was, and what I believe marketing was not. And I think that's important, because in many cases people believe that marketing or the Cmo role is can be a bit of a panacea.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: right? A cure all for all the organization's problems. You know. And whenever there is a challenge, oftentimes marketing is the first organization that is tapping in some cases rightfully so, but in others I think it's very important for us to make sure that there's a clear understanding of what marketing can and cannot impact.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh:  As an example, if you've got a true product issue, it's in my opinion it's marketing job to make sure that we call that out.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: We start with the consumer and what the consumer needs wants and beliefs. And then we make sure we pull that all the way through into product development to make the product better. So it's something that we can actually market to consumers. Right?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: So I think the the important thing that you need to do when walking in. And again, all this is even before starting, is that you need to have a clear understanding of the tools, the resources, and the support that you're going to have from your from your leader as well as your board of directors.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: One of the things that I was really excited about, when, when joining beyond me, was looking at our board and seeing people that I felt like I could learn from that I could build with that I could go to with a strategy, go to with a new structure and build relationships with them, and and that they're helping us kind of helping me implement what it is that I want to do

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: and I've seen that across the C suite as well as our board of directors, and it's been really encouraging for me. And then, when I started, the first thing that I did was, I talked to us, my, my, my boss, and said, Alright, this is what I believe we need to do, based on what your objectives are for the business. And here's the measurement plan that I believe that we'll need to put in place in order for us to track where that marketing is helping to achieve that mission.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Now, I may not be responsible for 100% of that objective but for the portion that I am responsible for this is how we're going to know that what is it we're doing is working. So whether it's growing household penetration and attracting new users into our product or our category, if it's pulling, laps users back in to our franchise and to our brands, or if it's actually seeing if we can increase by rate for existing users, or even increase share of requirement versus competition.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: We know what those metrics are that are marketing specific metrics. It should still ladder up to revenue and volume goals. But I wanted to make sure that we had a clear measurement plan that was in place that was socialized broadly amongst my peers. It's the other challenge that I've had in the past is just a lack of understanding from partners or collaborators that I've got in R&D, or an operations or in sales or growth

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: where they don't necessarily understand how to measure success for marketing initiatives. So I wanted to make sure that's very clear within this organization, so that we know that in the short term I might not be able to influence revenue immediately with every single tactic that I do. But some of the tactics that are focused on driving awareness or affinity are just as important as the ones that are driving a short term Roi.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: Does that answer the question?

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Ken Turner: Can I? Can I add really quickly to that, Nadine? It's because it's I think it's a perfect setup, I think. If I could boil it down to maybe 3 factors in terms of the the the how and what needed Ak mentioned it. The first is support from leadership and really support in 3 areas, support and agreement and enrollment of what marketing's role is or the potential of marketing role. If we can prove it out

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Ken Turner: the second is leadership to have flexibility, so allow flexibility within the marketing team.

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Ken Turner: And the third is the ability from support, from from leadership. With respect to investment, it's needed. So that's kinda point 1.2 is having a clear understanding of the consumer that is needed for growth.

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Ken Turner: That allows us to build the foundation for growth and then the third area is the ability to build the marketing team and the levers that will allow you to do that. And really, in 3 different areas, product or service. Because ultimately, that's the widget the engagement through experiences, whatever that experience is. And then these days it is content

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Ken Turner: that will allow us to have reach reach and engagement. And so I think that's it. It's support from leadership. It's understanding consumer, and that it's via ability to build the team and the levers.

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Nadine Dietz: So ken I'm gonna I'm gonna stay with you for a second because I wanna dig into that a little bit more. So we talked about the why, the how somewhat of the who and let's talk about when, because what you're describing is is in A is a great scenario, for when times are good, I think when times get tough.

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Nadine Dietz: there's more scrutiny and less patience on the long versus the short. So how does your framework shift? To kind of ebb and flow with the organization? Or is it really, truly that there are some factors you can point to to help you maintain the hold on the long?

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Ken Turner: II think that goes back to

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Ken Turner: the support needed from the organization to understand that marketing isn't always an roi sometimes it's an roe. And so a bit of this is how we set up the measurements for success.

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Ken Turner: If we are tracking brand awareness, if we are tracking brand equity, even if we're tracking Mps in that promoter. There's an opportunity for us to make sure that we are still growing. With respect to to equity. I would say to go back to Ak's and ours time the opportunity to to talk about the rebel equity.

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Ken Turner: even when you didn't necessarily measure it, or or what has been built over the number of years is undeniable with respect to that brand, and there's no bigger opportunity to see that as when Covid happened, and the brand continue to grow just through the equity, because essentially all of all of the marketing stopped. And you could kind of see the the folks kinda run out of product with respect to to level. That's the that's the power of equity. I would say that

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Ken Turner: the the the model continues to move forward even in tough times. But again, I think it's a matter of how we measure success.

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Ken Turner: In order to get that alignment from the support of leaders and that way to to continue to drive towards marketing. Being a fundamental driver of the business. There's there's a catch to that, though, if you say marketing is a fundamental driver of the business, it's a fundamental driver of the business in good times and bad times as well. And so you have to be prepared. And it's like I mean, I use. I know I'm old. I use the example of 12 angry men. You actually have to enroll others to believe in the

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Ken Turner: power of marketing over time. That way you can buy yourself a little more time in order to deliver against the the metrics that you've set.

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Nadine Dietz: Wonderful. Okay, we have a bit of a problem in that. We're out of time. But I have another question. And there's 2 questions in from the audience. So I see your questions, Maria and David. If you can ken Ak. Can you hang with us for a couple of more minutes.

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Nadine Dietz: Okay, awesome. Alright. So, Maria David. If you could hang, we'll answer those questions. One quick thing for you, Akerho, and then I'd love for you to address Maria's question. I'll I'll read it. For those who are tuning in audio only. But my question is just to close the loop on the marketing as a catch-all to avoid or embrace you kind of tease on this a little bit. But how do you keep the define, the the. I hate to use word walls, because it's always synonymous with.

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Nadine Dietz: you know, not really being creative. But there, there are times when you have to say, that's not Marketing's job, right? And then we'll get to Maria's question.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: So in terms of How do you define the scope of what marketing is able to impact. Yeah, II think this is kind of one of the harder things or challenges that marketers have to deal with is actually scoping the role to a place. It's actually manageable. You know, it's funny when I when I started it beyond me within the first month I was delivered. Esg, here you go. Here's a new baby for you to take care of.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: And it's it was a challenge for me, right? Because there are so many other opportunities that we have to take advantage of, or challenges that we need to meet. And now there's another opportunity for for me to to kind of look after as well. I would say that the best way to do that is to clearly define early on, as early as humanly possible, even before taking on the role what success truly looks like within the Cmo function? Ii can go on a bit of a soapbox, indeed, I'm sure you can, and I know Ken Ken as well about the

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I would say, maybe the misplaced expectation that's currently on Cmos across the country. Talking about. You know just what boards believe, or Cfos or Cos believe that we can actually influence an impact?

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I tried to mitigate that as much as possible, mostly through the advice and counsel that I got from 10 by having early conversations with the C-suite about what it is that we were able to achieve and the scope of responsibility that was willing to take on in this role.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: but that's probably the best thing that I could give you is just being very clear about exactly what role that you can play within your organization. And the impact you believe you can have within the Psyche of the consumer.

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Nadine Dietz: Thank you. Ak, and I'm gonna ask you Maria's question, because it's completely connected to what you were just talking about. And then, Ken, I'll have you close this out if you don't mind answering David's question, which I'll I'll read out for everybody else's benefit if they're tuning in via audio. So ak, Maria asked, you know.

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Nadine Dietz: how would you recommend if marketing is not driving the company strategy? Because that's how it was historically handled.

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: I would say that Red Bull is an anomaly, and that marketing truly lead strategy and and drives a lot of the business decisions within Amazon and and campaign Monitor was really sales a campaign monitoring the operations team at Amazon. As everything is certain surface to the operations team at Amazon the thing that was helpful to me. In that situation where strategy wasn't dictated by marketing was being the most prepared person in the room. Right I would consistently look ahead

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Akerho "AK" Oghoghomeh: beyond where the operation was, and make sure that we were able to proactively address concerns before they showed up. So every single meeting that I walked into. I had a clear perspective. I would build a framework that everyone reacted to. And then slowly, over time, we became seen as the people that were actually building and dictating strategy within that organization, at least within recruitment marketing the small sphere of Amazon, that I was responsible for

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Nadine Dietz: great, so great advice. Thanks for that. And ken. Okay, this is really great question, too. So in your opinion, this is from ken another, or sorry this from David says, Hey, Ken, in your opinion, what is the biggest challenge? Opportunity of growing a brand when the IP of many products you sell tends to be from other brands, not your own.

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Nadine Dietz: IE. Sports team, merchandise, player, trading cards, etc.,

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Ken Turner: the the biggest. It's a great question. The biggest opportunity is

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Ken Turner: relevance and authenticity. As you're growing a brand so especially if you're growing in a playground call it football or basketball or baseball those others who have IP have built up a legacy already. And so you can actually leverage relevance a little bit of region authenticity the the opportunity or the the challenge with that is sometimes as a fundamental driver of the business. You can get comfortable

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Ken Turner: with the fact that you don't need to do much, and you fail to build your own brand. And that's the that's the challenge that sometimes we face, because you've leveraged an IP it's allowing you for growth. And then you stall because you haven't actually built the equity. So it has to be done in parallel. You have to have something on which you a brand foundation on which you stand again in essence positioning, and assets that you own, and then you leverage, the IP for reach, relevance and authenticity.

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Nadine Dietz: Amazing. Wow! Well, thank you both for hanging with me for a few more minutes. Also. Thank you. To those in the audience who hung on as well, really really appreciate your great advice here today and

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Nadine Dietz: I can't wait to have a run, too, with you guys next time. So thank you. So much.

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Nadine Dietz: Awesome. Thanks, Nadine. Thanks, Nadine. This has been great. Thank you.